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NVIDIA Talks DX12, DX11 Efficiency Improvements

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Manufacturer: NVIDIA

DX11 could rival Mantle

The big story at GDC last week was Microsoft’s reveal of DirectX 12 and the future of the dominant API for PC gaming.  There was plenty of build up to the announcement with Microsoft’s DirectX team posting teasers and starting up a Twitter account of the occasion. I hosted a live blog from the event which included pictures of the slides. It was our most successful of these types of events with literally thousands of people joining in the conversation. Along with the debates over the similarities of AMD’s Mantle API and the timeline for DX12 release, there are plenty of stories to be told.

After the initial session, I wanted to setup meetings with both AMD and NVIDIA to discuss what had been shown and get some feedback on the planned direction for the GPU giants’ implementations.  NVIDIA presented us with a very interesting set of data that both focused on the future with DX12, but also on the now of DirectX 11.

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The reason for the topic is easy to decipher – AMD has built up the image of Mantle as the future of PC gaming and, with a full 18 months before Microsoft’s DirectX 12 being released, how developers and gamers respond will make an important impact on the market. NVIDIA doesn’t like to talk about Mantle directly, but it’s obvious that it feels the need to address the questions in a roundabout fashion. During our time with NVIDIA’s Tony Tamasi at GDC, the discussion centered as much on OpenGL and DirectX 11 as anything else.

What are APIs and why do you care?

For those that might not really understand what DirectX and OpenGL are, a bit of background first. APIs (application programming interface) are responsible for providing an abstraction layer between hardware and software applications.  An API can deliver consistent programming models (though the language can vary) and do so across various hardware vendors products and even between hardware generations.  They can provide access to feature sets of hardware that have a wide range in complexity, but allow users access to hardware without necessarily knowing great detail about it.

Over the years, APIs have developed and evolved but still retain backwards compatibility.  Companies like NVIDIA and AMD can improve DirectX implementations to increase performance or efficiency without adversely (usually at least) affecting other games or applications.  And because the games use that same API for programming, changes to how NVIDIA/AMD handle the API integration don’t require game developer intervention.

With the release of AMD Mantle, the idea of a “low level” API has been placed in the minds of gamers and developers.  The term “low level” can mean many things, but in general it is associated with an API that is more direct, has a thinner set of abstraction layers, and uses less translation from code to hardware.  The goal is to reduce the amount of overhead (performance hit) that APIs naturally impair for these translations.  With additional performance available, the CPU cycles can be used by the program (game) or be slept to improve battery life. In certain cases, GPU throughput can increase where the API overhead is impeding the video card's progress.

Passing additional control to the game developers, away from the API or GPU driver developers, gives those coders additional power and improves the ability for some vendors to differentiate. Interestingly, not all developers want this kind of control as it requires more time, more development work, and small teams that depend on that abstraction to make coding easier will only see limited performance advantages.

The reasons for this transition to a lower level API is being driven the by widening gap of performance between CPU and GPUs.  NVIDIA provided the images below.

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On the left we see performance scaling in terms of GFLOPS and on the right the metric is memory bandwidth. Clearly the performance of NVIDIA's graphics chips has far outpaced (as have AMD’s) what the best Intel desktop processor have been able and that gap means that the industry needs to innovate to find ways to close it.

Continue reading NVIDIA Talks DX12, DX11 Efficiency Improvements!!!

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Even with that huge disparity, there aren't really that many cases which are ripe for performance improvement with CPU efficiency increases.  NVIDIA showed us this graphic above with performance changes when scaling a modern Intel Core i7 processor from 2.5 GHz to 3.3 GHz. 3DMark and AvP benchmarks don't scale at all, Battlefield 3 scales up to 3% with the GTX Titan, Bioshock Infinite scales across the board up to 5% and Metro: Last Light is the stand out with an odd 10%+ change on the HD 7970 GHz Edition.  

NVIDIA doesn’t deny that a lower level API is beneficial or needed for PC gaming. It does, however, think that the methodology of AMD’s Mantle is the wrong way to go.  Fragmenting the market into additional segments with a proprietary API does not maintain the benefits of hardware abstractions or “cross vendor support”. I realize that many readers will see some irony in this statement considering many in the industry would point to CUDA, PhysX, 3D Vision and others as NVIDIA’s own proprietary feature sets. 

NVIDIA’s API Strategy

Obviously NVIDIA is going to support DirectX 12 and continues to support the latest updates to OpenGL.  You’ll find DX12 support on Fermi, Kepler and Maxwell parts (in addition to whatever is coming next) and NVIDIA says they have been working with Microsoft since the beginning on the new API.  The exact timeline of that and what constitutes “working with” is also up for debate, but that is mostly irrelevant for our discussion. 

What NVIDIA did want to focus on with us was the significant improvements that have been made on the efficiency and performance of DirectX 11.  When NVIDIA is questioned as to why they didn’t create their Mantle-like API if Microsoft was dragging its feet, they point to the vast improvements possible and made with existing APIs like DX11 and OpenGL. The idea is that rather than spend resources on creating a completely new API that needs to be integrated in a totally unique engine port (see Frostbite, CryEngine, etc.) NVIDIA has instead improved the performance, scaling, and predictability of DirectX 11.

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This graphic, provided by NVIDIA of course, shows 9 specific Direct3D 11 functions.  The metric of efficiency in this case is rated by the speed increase between the AMD R9 290X in red and the three different progressive driver versions in green on a GTX 780 Ti.  The Draw, SetIndexBuffer and SetVertexBuffers functions have gone through several hundred percent performance improvements since just the R331 driver stack to an as-yet-unreleased driver due out in the next couple of weeks.

These were obviously hand selected by NVIDIA so there may be others that show dramatically worse results, but it is clear that NVIDIA has been working to improve the efficiency of DX11. NVIDIA claims that these fixes are not game specific and will improve performance and efficiency for a lot of GeForce users. Even if that is the case, we will only really see these improvements surface in titles that have addressable CPU limits or very low end hardware, similar to how Mantle works today.

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NVIDIA shows this another way by also including AMD Mantle.  Using the StarSwarm demo, built specifically for Mantle evaluation, NVIDIA’s GTX 780 Ti with progressive driver releases sees a significant shift in relation to AMD.  Let’s focus just on D3D11 results – the first AMD R9 290X score and then the successive NVIDIA results.  Out the gate, the GTX 780 Ti is faster than the 290X even using the R331 driver. If you move forward to the R334 and the unreleased driver you see improvements of 57% pushing NVIDIA’s card much higher than the R9 290X using DX11.

If you include Mantle in the picture, it improves performance on the R9 290X by 87% - a HUGE amount! That result was able to push the StarSwarm performance past that of the GTX 780 Ti with the R331 and R334 drivers but isn’t enough to stay in front of the upcoming release.

Thief, the latest Mantle-based game release, shows a similar story; an advantage for AMD (using driver version 14.2) over the GTX 780 Ti with R331 and R334, but NVIDIA’s card taking the lead (albeit by a small percentage) with the upcoming driver.

If you followed the panels at GDC at all, you might have seen one about OpenGL speed improvements as well.  This talk was hosted by NVIDIA, AMD and Intel and all involved openly bragging about the extension-based changes to the API that have increased efficiency in a similar way to what NVIDIA has done with DX11. Even though OpenGL often gets a bad reputation for being outdated and bulky, the changes have added support for bindless textures, texture arrays, shader storage buffer objects, and commonly discussed DirectX features like tessellation, compute shaders, etc. 

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Add to that the extreme portability of OpenGL across mobile devices, Windows, Linux, Mac, and even SteamOS, and NVIDIA says their commitment to the open-source API is stronger than ever.

The Effect of DirectX 12

As we discussed in our live blog, the benefits of the upcoming DX12 implementation will come in two distinct parts: performance improvements for existing hardware and feature additions for upcoming hardware.  Microsoft isn’t talking much about the new features that it will offer and instead are focused on the efficiency improvements. These include reductions in submission overhead, improved scalability on multi-core systems, and its ability to mimic a console-style execution environment. All of this gives more power to the developer to handle and manipulate the hardware directly.

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NVIDIA claims that work on DX12 with Microsoft “began more than four years ago with discussions about reducing resource overhead. For the past year, NVIDIA has been working closely with the DirectX team to deliver a working design and implementation of DX12 at GDC.” This would indicate that while general ideas about what would be in the next version of DX, the specific timeline to build and prepare it started last spring.

NVIDIA is currently the only GPU vendor to have a DX12 capable driver in the hands of developers and the demo that Microsoft showed at GDC was running on a GeForce GTX TITAN BLACK card. (UPDATE: I was told that actually Intel has a DX12 capable driver available as well leaving AMD as the only major vendor without.)

Will NVIDIA feel heat from Mantle?

Though it doesn’t want to admit it, NVIDIA is clearly feeling some pressure from gamers and media due to AMD’s homemade Mantle API.  The company’s stance is to wait for DirectX 12 to be released and level the playing field with an industry standard rather than proceed down the pathway of another custom option.  In the next 18 months, though, there will be quite a few games released with Mantle support, using the Frostbite engine or CryEngine. How well those games are built, and how much of an advantage the Mantle code path offers, will determine if gamers will respond positively to Radeon cards.  NVIDIA, on the other hand, will be focusing its reticule on improving the efficiency and performance of DirectX 11 in its own driver stack in an attempt to maximize CPU efficiency (and thus overall performance) levels to rival Mantle. 

During a handful of conversations with NVIDIA on DirectX and Mantle, there was a tone from some that leaned towards anger, but hints at annoyance. It’s possible, according to NVIDIA’s performance improvements in DX11 efficiency shown here, that AMD could have accomplished the same thing without pushing a new API ahead of DirectX 12.  Questions about the division of internal resources on the AMD software team between Mantle and DirectX development are often murmured as is the motives of the developers continuing to adopt Mantle today. Finding the answers to such questions is a fruitless endeavor though and to speculate seems useless – for now.

AMD has done good with Mantle.  Whether or not the company intended for the new API to become a new standard, or merely force Microsoft's hand with DirectX 12, it is thanks to AMD that we are even talking about efficiency with such passion. Obviously AMD hopes they can get some financial benefits from the time and money spent on the project, with improved marketshare and better mindshare with gamers on the PC. The number and quality of games that are released in 2014 (and some of 2015) will be the determining factor for that.

Over the next year and half, NVIDIA will need to prove its case that DirectX 11 can be just as efficient as what AMD has done with Mantle.  Or at the very least, the performance deltas between the two options are small enough to not base purchasing decisions on.  I do believe that upon the release of DX12, the playing field will level once again and development on Mantle will come to a close; that is, at least if Microsoft keeps its promises.

March 22, 2014 | 03:50 PM - Posted by KellyKTorres5 (not verified)

Or at the very least, the performance deltas between the two options are small enough to not base purchasing decisions on. I do believe that upon the release of DX12, the playing field will level once again and development on Mantle will come to a close; that is, at least if Microsoft keeps its promises.

March 22, 2014 | 05:27 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Appropriate title: NV talks, while AMD does.

March 22, 2014 | 06:05 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

AMD "does" while it's delayed, available on only BF4 and Thief with negligible performance increase.

There's a difference between "doing" something and whether or not it should be done. They were late, pushed it out prematurely, and it's not worthwhile.

Read: Physx was also a flop.

March 22, 2014 | 08:05 PM - Posted by elajt_1 (not verified)

Negligible performance? I wouldn't say that, it all comes down to what kind of hardware you've got. I've you are on the high end side then in some cases yes. But not if you'r running CF or higher (e.g. more cards).

March 22, 2014 | 09:44 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Talking about a 2 month delay of an entire API reeks of nothing but desperation from either a fanboy or short seller. And not only are AMD shipping Mantle in 3 games and a next generation demo/engine, with more games around the corner, developers are lining up by the dozens for access. Crytek also endorsed the product 2 days ago, knowing DX12 was coming (i haven't noticed anyone try to explain that).
It's funny how so many posts on message boards and websites look and read exactly like the shit spewed on various AMD finance boards by those eager to see AMD's bankruptcy. Most couldn't care less about competition, gamers, enthusiasts, or anything but themselves profiting. A good way to aid that agenda is to organize and spread lies and FUD across the internet, boosting negative sentiment and affecting sales.

Mantle is a huge performance boost, and best of all, increases minimum frames dramatically. All while reducing frame latency dramatically. This last point has curiously, but expectedly, vanished from the narratives of the usual shill 'tech press'. The same ones being paid to promote nvidia's propaganda over the last year, affecting sales of their competitors and making 'frame pacing' prominent. It's corruption at it's finest.

March 23, 2014 | 08:17 AM - Posted by Nilbog

A delay is a delay. Period. If they managed themselves better, and didnt rush the announcements with a hard date nobody would have cared.

Nobody has to talk about DX12 support because nearly the entire PC gaming market is already running Windows. Very few people will upgrade to Win 8 just for that. It either comes to Win 7 and a large chunk of the market can use it, or not.

Nobody want's AMDs bankruptcy, they just expect more from them. Meaning people hold them to some kind of quality standard. Which isn't a crazy concept. Or a bad thing.

Mantle is only a "huge" performance boost if you have an APU. People with a CPU that isn't a joke will see less than a 5% improvement.

Frame Latency is exactly what Frame Pacing is about. You just contradicted yourself.

That same "propaganda" also clearly shows that Nvidia has serious Frame Pacing issues with 3 and 4 cards.

Just because you don't have a Crossfire setup to find out, or just don't notice the stutter, does not mean it does not exist. Or that it is propaganda.

I'm a Crossfire user and can assure it is very real. I have resorted to limiting my FPS to keep steady, smooth feeling frametimes.

Put down the Kool-Aid

March 23, 2014 | 01:40 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Yeah, BS to absolutely everything you said.

First, nobody wants AMD bankruptcy? That's the biggest pile of BS i've seen in a long time. There are thousands upon thousands of people that want an AMD bankruptcy, there are over 100,000,000 shares shorted on AMD and forums are flooded with those people spreading FUD, viral marketing, and misinformation about AMD. A bankrupt AMD makes them rich, imagine if an organization was involved with an orchastrated effort to spread negativity and affect sales. It's clear, i've seen several posts on many forums that match finance board shit, verbatim. One of the biggest intel/nv shills, Ashraf on Seeking Alpha posts under the name Intel17 on Anandtech and is an administrator on Xtremesystems, for example. I've seen hundreds more posts that articulate the exact sentiment and lies spread on finance boards, and it affects the narrative and sentiment of consumers reading those posts. It's absolute FUD and slander. Don't tell me it ain't happening, there is no doubt about it. I'm starting to think you probably know that though...

A delay of 2 months is trivial for a brand new, pioneering, closer to the metal API. Such a minor thing only serves fanboys, viral marketers and people with an agenda the opportunity to go forth and drive a narrative about how inept AMD must be because, well, there was a 2 month delay! Bottom line is it's on the market now, and end users are benefiting and enjoying yet another pioneering innovation from AMD.

So because Mantle benefits 96% of the CPU market the most, you somehow attempt to turn that into a negative. Meanwhile, that means that more people can enjoy high quality gaming and gaming reaches a much wider audience. What twisted logic and a blatant fallacy that is. Sounds like another attempt to affect mindset and drive a narrative..

BTW, who bought you those cards? Since they have a history of doing so, are you another one that NVidia bought cards for to find any perceivable negative possible? I see lots of posts on many forums where known AMD haters claim to have AMD cards, only to write deriding 'reviews' and comments about some obscure problem that might crop up. Affecting the narrative and sentiment.

The same propaganda about frame latency clearly does NOT affect reviewers scorn of nv in any way close to the way they attacked AMD. Where's the headlines? Mantle is far smoother and a much better experience for end users. Where are those eye catching headlines?

Kool aid..... LOL. Yeah, that seems to be another strategy; to trivialize and marginalize anyone that might indicate what is really happening in the industry. That's all just the tip of the iceburg. Haven't even gotten into the politics, back room deals, anti competition, bribes, and REAL money exchanging hands, etc.... ;)

If you are not one of those people, you'd be in the minority on todays message boards. They are overrun with viral marketers and investors driving negative sentiment, spreading FUD and outright lies to promote their agenda. There are a huge number of 'people' that would benefit from an AMD bankruptcy. NV and intel have a strong history of unfair competition, bribery and anti consumer behavior. Why any real enthusiast/open market/competition supporting person would support those kinds of action is beyond me.

I'll share more soon. :)

March 23, 2014 | 06:46 PM - Posted by Nilbog

AMD does not cover 96% of the CPU market. Do you have a source for that number?

If you must know. My Dad bought me the second card for my birthday. You are more than welcome to think NVIDIA bought it for me though.

The rest of your post is just filled with delusions and paranoia.

You are ranting about fanboys when you need to look into the mirror.

March 23, 2014 | 10:56 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

You must not be aware that Mantle also increases performance on intel CPU's. Again, Mantle is good for >90% of the CPU market. And for the rest of the miniscual CPU market, what if those users have multi GPU setups? That's right, CPU limited. Of course, you won't find much talk of that in reviews. They like to focus on setting up a system to purposely hinder any affect Mantle has. That's a complete disservice to consumers.

Paranoia and delusions. lol That's what they said about people raising questions about the Vietnamm War and Gulf of Tonkin incident and many, many other events throughout history...

March 24, 2014 | 08:27 AM - Posted by Nilbog

Now its 90%? Is that number going up or down next time we chat?

The increase in performance is less than 5%. Mantle is doing absolutely nothing for Intel CPUs in real world performance. Perhaps it would be more of a difference with an i5 or i3, but i don't recall seeing any Mantle benchmarks with those CPUs.

You are also conveniently leaving out that you need an AMD GPU to even use Mantle right now. I know they want it to be open in the future, but as of today its only supported by one vendor. So according to the Steam Hardware Survey Feb 2014 (http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/), 31.03% of the market can even use Mantle.

Reviewers are setting up a standard high end gaming PC. Just because Intels CPUs are fast enough for good performance in both APIs does not mean people are purposefully hindering anything. It means Intel sells some really fast CPUs.

Yes, if you already have an AMD CPU and happen to have GCN based cards. This is great for you, i agree there. But this is not going to help sell AMD CPUs because they are still slower then Intel in nearly everything else.

If you are running an i7 with two cards you will not be CPU limited. If you are running 3 or 4 cards you should be pushing three or more monitors, in which case you are GPU limited. So i fail to see you point.

You are now comparing wars where actual people died. To the PC hardware market?? Really???? Perhaps you should compare Intel to the Spanish Inquisition next.

You are an idiot.

Sort it out mate.

March 24, 2014 | 11:22 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

lol @ the shill, typical response from the goon squad. Try to get your propaganda organized, you're all over the place.

First, yep Mantle benefits >90% (let's say 96%, shall we? ;)) since 96% of CPUs sold are under $200, which includes FX/I5 and under. If you can't understand that i'm not going to resort to drawing you a picture, so you're on your own. Maybe ask your Mom for some help on that. The other few processors sold also get a boost, as many of the high end CPU's sold are used in multi GPU systems where the CPU again becomes the bottleneck, thus benefiting from Mantle. You can refer to your Mom again on this if needed. But alas, of course benchmarks on these lower systems are limited. That would show the real potential of Mantle, and reviewers have incentives not to. Gutter journalism, supported by gutter viral marketing. So reviewers are doing a huge diservice to almost the entire market. Pathetic really.

Awww how noble of you, standing up for the fallen War heroes. And yes they are heroes, but when you try to manipulate a simple comparison of how history has shown time and time again that these so called conspiracies are indeed >90% (96%?) of the time proven true, in a way that dishonors fallen Vets, then you cross the line. You are one sick A-hole.

March 24, 2014 | 12:38 PM - Posted by Nilbog

I'm starting to wonder if AMD is paying you to post these. You are clearly just a shill for AMD.

Such blatant, blind fanboyism can only be explained by you being paid. Right?

You are still conveniently leaving out that you need an AMD GCN based card to even use Mantle. Which is definitely WAY less than the generous 31.03% i quoted from Steam. I'm not going to resort to drawing you a picture.

Yeah, Intel and NVIDIA are paying me to post this here. They bought me my AMD GPUs. They even built my computer for me. Intel sent an engineer to my house to hand deliver the CPU and help build the PC. We had pizza after. Then NVIDIA gave me a 780Ti to apologize for the Crossfire stutter i endured for them.

Not sure how my Mother came into the conversation. Though it's still cute to see you resorting that low (You are assuming i live with my parents?). That really helped solidify your point. AMD is sure getting their moneys worth with you on the payroll.

Everything is >90% (96%?) with you. Must be nice.

Let's not forget who compared a marketplace to the Vietnam War. It sure wasn't this asshole. You are not doing AMD any favors comparing those. Just keep digging your hole deeper. You are truly one disturbed individual. You should seek help.

March 24, 2014 | 12:55 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

How can i be clearly paid if you are only wondering about it??? You seem confused.

And so now you are conveniently moving the goal posts from your claim that Mantle only benefits lower end AMD APU's to something else, after you were proven to have no clue what you're talking about. So do >90% (96%) of the CPU market benefit from Mantle of not? I'll throw you a bone and leave out the highest end CPU's, even though they also get a huge benefit in multi GPU setups. I'll also help you ignore the huge benefit in smoothness over DX, by not mentioning it.

Sarcasm won't hide the fact that NV is going around providing hardware to shills, to dramatise and enhance any possible issue they can come up with.

Let's not twist my original reference to the Vietnam War and how the Gulf of Tonkin incident was portrayed as a conspiracy theory, when in fact if was 100% valid, as are many other so called conspiracy theories. You're attempt to manipulate that into something derogatory on my part is comical.

March 24, 2014 | 04:33 PM - Posted by Nilbog

I am now positive you are being paid by AMD. You are bitching about shills when you are one yourself.

Here is the exact quote you are referring to.

"Mantle is only a "huge" performance boost if you have an APU."

I never said it "only benefits lower end APUs" BTW there is no such thing as a high end APU either. They don't even compete with an i5.

I will reiterate, if you have a CPU that doesn't suck ass, AND you have a GCN based card. You will see a very small improvement over DX11. I'm sure it will keep getting better, but last time i checked it's not much of a difference.

No, Mantle does not benefit even 50% of the CPU market because you need a 7000 series or higher GPU to run Mantle.

You are assuming everyone in the market is running GCN GPUs.

Please, lets go back to smoothness. Which is referring to Frametimes. I thought that was FUD created by NVIDIA shills? Now its important, but only within AMDs API. I see.

Even if that is true. Honestly who gives a shit if NVIDIA is giving people AMD GPUs. They had to buy it. People are still buying AMD GPUs. AMD is still shipping inside every modern console. AMD is still making powerful GPUs that actually compete in the market.

Sarcasm comes from you passing judgement. It's like not you would believe me if i tried to defend that i am not paid by them anyway. (Was it the pizza that gave it away? ..It was the pizza...) Just because i think AMD CPUs are slow, and i notice the Crossfire stutter. Does not mean i am a shill, being paid by someone, or that i'm trying to put them out of business.

Believe it or not, i do like AMD. I just expect more from them, honestly. The CPUs are disappointing, but the GPUs are fantastic. I also think Mantle is great. I just feel that you are trying to over sell it, because it's just not done yet.

I understand the point you wanted to make with the reference, but that is just not the kind of thing you compare petty crap like this to. You could have easily chosen something else... perhaps from this year... that used to be a very famous conspiracy theory.. That maybe doesn't involve people being killed. Just putting that out there.

March 24, 2014 | 06:04 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

And your quote is still %100 wrong no matter how many times you post it. By your own admission, Mantle is NOT only a huge performance boost if you have an APU. And my point still stands that >%90 (%96?) of the CPU's available have a huge benefit because that's how large the under $200 processor market share is. And it covers everything from APU's to FX's, including I3 and I5 and lower. I'm now wondering if you actually believe that no matter what intel processor we're talking about, the performance is so stratospheric that it renders babies obsolete (i hope that reference to babies doesn't offend your sensibilities).

Yes, let's go back to smoothness. So am i to understand that since Mantle provides a much smoother lower latency experience than those provided by NV and DX that it is no longer an issue? Let's get it off the radar so to speak? How about we get some articles attacking NV's much rougher and higher latent experience. Seems that would be fair, no? If we can get about a years worth of those articles, then i'd drop it.

You can blame NV's and intel's viral marketing for the backlash against them. If their products can't stand for themselves without resorting to illegal conduct and gutter style marketing, then maybe they oughta spend a little more time in their own labs instead of getting their goon squad to peddle their propaganda.

BTW, if you have a problem with the realities of war, take it up with the scum sucking cretens, politicians, and money makers that manufacture these wars with pathetic excuses and propaganda for their own personal gains. It's them that don't give a rats ass about the heros lost in war, not me. I hope you aren't naiive enough to believe ANY of the crap spewed by the elite sponsored main stream media. This 'how about something more recent' attitude is exactly what the powers that be rely on the public to accept. Out of sight, out mind. It's already happened so it's old news, doesn't matter any more. You want something more recent? How about Iraq, or Building 7, or this manufactured plane dissapearance conveniently and abruptly subplanting and distinguishing and mention of Crimea on CNN and Fox. It's like a switch went off and this mysterious plane dissapearing has blanketed the news coverage for 2 solid weeks. You'd have to be a bafoon to swallow any of that BS. History speaks for itself, and if it walks like a duck, and continues to waddle like a duck, well it's a duck.

Same thing goes for intel and their corruption, bribing Dell, forcing motherboard manufacturers to 'white box' any AMD motherboard they sold, getting on the BoD and sabatoging One Laptop Per Child because it would hurt their business, benchmark manipulation, benchmark corruption through ICC, BAPCO, Cinebench, the list goes on and on and on. Otellini was on the pres' technical advisory board, which also has all kinds of implications whith the shananigans of the NSA coming to light. I'd throw my computers, phones and internet out the window if all that was available was NV or intel. They don't deserve and will never get a cent of my hard earned money regardless of any higher numbers in certain benchmarks, but if you feel it's OK to support that kind of culture fill your boots. Don't go around proclaiming AMD's hardware is crap, or junk. They're doing incredibly well with the resources available and politically sponsored sabatoge from their competitors to knock them out of business. Phuck intel, phuck nvidia. And phuck reviewers for propagating their agenda.

March 24, 2014 | 11:52 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Poe's Law.

March 25, 2014 | 10:46 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

AMD are to blame just as all the websites (PCPER and TechReport) that were promoting Xfire/Sli and especially Frame Latency. AMD need to bring out the graphs showing Mantle`s strong points e.g. XFIRE and Frame Latency Vs Nvidia, but they have not done that. And neither have these so called "champion website that invented Frame Latency benchmarks" with the help from Nvidia. We don't see those standards being upheld any more, why?

March 24, 2014 | 11:36 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

1- DX12 will not come to windows7, and probably not windows8, for the simple reason is that DX is the only selling point for windows they have to link it to an OS, otherwise windows wouldnt sell, if it wasnt for dx11 ppl would still be using XP.
also DX12 being at the majority of player base is false, for that to happen, ppl need to migrate to the new OS, and that like each time takes over 2-3 years, so beside the bullshit they said at the GDC, they are not talking about the player base at launch of DX12 but the projection few years later, and you need to understand that if AMD has 30% of player base, DX12 in 2 years wouldnt even have 5%, and devs will still not develope even though it's available, and they will wait just like they did with DX11, ppl fail to see that if they stick with DX12 they get nothing for 2 years, then at best get about 10 games the following 2 years after it's release, thats reality.

2- you live in denial, if you still need ppl to show you the merites of mantle, after all the havoc that it created these last couple months, when someone is using FX8350+290X and gets 49% boost, to match a config with a 1000$ intel cpu is just amazing.
you need to understand how mantle works, doesnt just work with low/mid cpu bottleneck, but the GPU musnt be the bottleneck or the perf boost wont show anyway, so even with highest cpu, if you give it more gpu resources, say crossfire or lower the setting that makes the gpu bottleneck, the perf boost will show.

3-crossfire doesnt have stutter anymore, they added frame pacing couple months ago, i also have crossfire 280x and i dont have any problemes since catalyst 13.12

March 23, 2014 | 01:35 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

""Mantle is a huge performance boost, and best of all, increases minimum frames dramatically. All while reducing frame latency dramatically. This last point has curiously, but expectedly, vanished from the narratives of the usual shill 'tech press'. The same ones being paid to promote nvidia's propaganda over the last year, affecting sales of their competitors and making 'frame pacing' prominent. It's corruption at it's finest""

I couldnt have said that better myself. I would love to get PCPER and TECHREPORT thoughts on that. I mean what happened to all the Frame Pacing articles on AMD? Hypocrisy at its best.

March 23, 2014 | 04:23 PM - Posted by arbiter

Huge performance boost? are you still reading AMD's promo from a 8 months ago? I wouldn't call 10% a huge boost. My gtx780 is only a few fps behind a 290x using mantle. 290x went from around 58 fps to 73fps, my 780 avg'ed on the game 69fps using dx11. 290x shouldn't had any issue beating my 780 without mantle. (yes same settings)

July 10, 2014 | 06:30 AM - Posted by TheDudeMan (not verified)

I can't believe how crazy this is getting. I was checking out some GPU review's ect and found this fight between AMD and Nvidia.

First off I just want to say that there are very few game's that use Mantle right now. But I'm sure there will be more to come as it does help without a doubt. You can check out any review and see that it does. Regardless of what CPU you have.

Then you have to remember in allot of review's before mantle was even released or after it was released the reviewer would not use Mantle just to keep thing's more on the Solid Power vs Solid Power level. And would't you know it, the 290 was beating the 780 in many game's or they would be with in + or - 2.50 FPS of each other that it would not even matter in real world.

I know allot of people get top end GPU's to play game's but it seems that benchmarking has become a game of it's own. Yes a Benchmark can give you an idea of how well a GPU would run in real world but I would have to say more so on Single Player game's then Multiplayer games.

I have been looking into video card's for my new build for month's checking out benchmarks, looking at review's and even asking some buddys. But it seem's that the worst part was asking friends as it would start a war in Ventrilo. The 290 user's would say go for the 290 and the 780 users would say go for the 780. It got pretty crazy for a few day's.

Anyway after more reviews and AMD vs Nv I ended up going for the Gigabyte 290 OC Edition but a month before that I was dead set on the 780. The thing that changed my mind was the fact that I have used both AMD and Nvidia in the past. Though it was never so dramatic since I would just pick the better GPU that was released at the time. So I did the same thing this time.

I must say that it is a big waste of time trying to go with a trend or buy a GPU based on how it will work 4 years from now. I did think about that but I didn't go crazy on it. I bought what worked best now and the fact that it is still being optimized is even better. Mantle is nice but I didn't buy the 290 for it, though Im sure it will help more and more as more games are optimized for mantle.

So stop the fighting and try playing a game with your friends. It is much more fun then playing the my video card is better then your video card game.

Anyway, I'm going to go play some Sniper Elite 3 for a while.

March 24, 2014 | 09:53 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Moron, the frame pacing tests with FCAT or FRAPS doesn't run with Mantle (because, "you know", the overlay of FCAT or the metric system of FRAPs between STAGES of DirectX doesn't run with apps that use DIFFERENT API), soooOOO it's IMPOSIBLE to test frame pacing with a independent system for all of the Mantle's games.

Hypocrisy? "idiotisy" is the word. And it isn't for PCPER or TR. ¬¬

March 25, 2014 | 10:52 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

How about Mantle Xfire and DX11 Sli?

Maybe Its just ignorance in your case.

March 25, 2014 | 02:47 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

It's called Ryan shrout, anandtech, and xtremehardware take relatively large payoffs from both intel and nvidia because both companies have around 30,000,000 shorted stocks on amd. To say anything else is a lie because it's quite obvious they do article editing or ignore a bit of tech news completely if it could look bad for either company in anyway.

Come on dude, it's the same thing with other tech stuff, viral marketing, propaganda, and people that take large bribes while bending over create a new industry standard. It is amazing that amd lasted this long.

March 25, 2014 | 03:06 PM - Posted by Jeremy Hellstrom

Man, I wish I was as rich as some of our readers seem to think.

March 22, 2014 | 06:33 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

>Appropriate title: NV talks, while AMD does.
Very strange conclusion. I see that NV iteratively doing it's drivers better, while AMD trying to push the task on developers with Mantle, though there is no profit for developer to constantly maintain and improve perf of AMD's GPUs, so prepare for possible bugs, perf drops, other surprises with future hardware.

Also I don't see any parallels between proprietary Mantle and CUDA.

CUDA was the first C like GPGPU api, there were not any industry standart APIs when it was released. NVIDIA founded GPGPU accelerator market from the ground up with CUDA and wrote a tons of libs for it, and CUDA is the only C++ like API on the market right now(I don't see any reason for them to swich on OpenCL, since CUDA was first on this market and it's dominant right now, not speaking that it's more mature, more feature rich, more simple and with much better software infrastructure).

Mantle on the other hand was introduced when there already were industrial standart APIs like DX and GL, we have bindless extensions for GL for years, which could bring similar or better numbers of drawcalls compared to Mantle, we also have DX which could do deffered contexts, but AMD always had shitty drivers team, so the natural way for them was to capitalise on it's console wins by moving software complexity from driver team to big developers(low level is the advantage and the differentiator only for big developers and their engines), DICE wrote for them Mantle and now developers busy by doing the optimisations for the minority of PC market, while ~85% of market sucks, thanks for that AMD

March 23, 2014 | 04:19 PM - Posted by arbiter

what about what AMD did for years while people complained of micro-stutter when using CF? Took Nvidia's release of FCAT to show AMD where they went wrong.

March 24, 2014 | 11:06 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

LOL, like the 2 yrs to fix frame pacing?

March 22, 2014 | 05:51 PM - Posted by amdBumLover (not verified)

Any specifics on dx12? also for Nvidias super dx11 optimizations, is it application specific of global?

March 22, 2014 | 06:19 PM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

The claim is that these are global.  But we'll have to see.

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