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John Carmack Interview: GPU Race, Intel Graphics, Ray Tracing, Voxels and more!

Ray tracing, unique PC gaming features and more

On the topic of ray tracing, a frequently debated issue on PC Perspective, Carmack does admit to finding its uses quite surprising and has spent some time building ray tracing engines for development testing. He seemed surprised by the results in his initial attempt to replace rasterization with a ray tracing engine, getting as much as 60 FPS at 720p resolutions on a Fermi-based NVIDIA graphics card. When performance dropped below the targeted frame rate he was able to either produce an image of a lower resolution and display that or use previous frames to sort of “blend” them for a smoother image. The issue though is the delta between a tech demo and fully implemented gaming engine – demos deal with static models, there is no character animation, etc. And while the fact that it runs at 60 FPS at 720p sounds impressive, if you were drawing that with a traditional rasterization engine it would be running at 1000 FPS!

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Intel ray tracing demo

Interestingly, Carmack discussed using ray tracing and x86 CPUs for the back end processing and mega-texture generation on RAGE. While performance per watt and per processor was still better using the GPGPU implementation id Software created at the beginning of development, the fact that development, maintenance and upkeep were significantly easier when using the x86 ray tracing method made the decision easy for him. In short, he says “in terms of results per developer hour, it is much, much better.”

Now to things of recent debate – infinite detail engines. He first clarifies that voxel engines and infinite detail topics are not the same thing and should not be treated as such. Carmack then states he believes “procedurally generated detail is usually not what you want.” A discussion that has been around for over a decade, truly useful procedurally generated content has never materialized though the ability to easily and efficiently manage the real data that you do create HAS. My favorite line? “Proceduralism is just a truly crappy form of data compression.” He continues to state that infinite detail isn’t really what’s important to future game development and instead we should be focusing on the “broad strokes” of artistic visions and build on them. “If you take uninspired content and go look at it at the molecular level, it’s still uninspired content.”

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Screenshot from Euclideon Unlimited Detail Engine

After discussing some of the interest in voxels and that the next step in development is to “geometrify” everything, Carmack mentions that he thinks eventually, ray tracing will win the rendering wars. Keep in mind that much of rasterization is built on decades of hacks – something we discussed in our previous interview with John. Where he is not sure on the path of development is on whether ray tracing into dense polygonal geometry or ray tracing into voxels will be the best method. Both have advantages but even with all the development going into voxels today, Carmack doesn’t see an engine for a “major AAA title” using it for quite some time.

Tessellation was discussed as well and Carmack agrees that the technology can have some value as long as it is implemented at the ground level of development. Bolting something on after the majority of a game is built won’t really do anything to benefit the gamers and will only be a check box feature. Tessellation at today’s performance levels will help with basic structures like the curve of a skull, but Carmack contends that the size of structures that developers are currently using normal maps for (fine grain in textures, etc) are not appropriate for current implementatons of tessellation hardware and that is where the benefit will truly be seen. We don’t quite have the tessellation power to render the entire world at sub-pixel sized triangles yet but that is coming, almost inevitably.

I asked John about the possibility of seeing Eyefinity/Surround support on RAGE and while he said that isn’t currently enabled, there are some research engines he has developed in house that he would like to see released as “novelty patches” like we were used to seeing in the old days. After RAGE is out the door he plans on playing with Eyefinity, Kinect SDK and even head mounted displays and we are definitely hoping to get some feedback after he spends some time with them.

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We hope to see some Eyefinity / Surround support in RAGE and Skyrim

Will there be any kind of benchmarking or testing modes in the pending release of RAGE? Not yet but he is hoping in the next month that they’ll be able to integrate some kind of artificial scene to display and output results from so gamers will be able to easily know if they can run at higher settings.

There was an interesting talk about the id Tech 5 engine and how it will be licensed – it won’t! In fact, only the ZeniMax family of developers will be able to utilize the engine to build new games. For modders, Carmack stated that they were going to release the 64-bit version of tools though there is going to be a limit to what people can do with it because there is a lot of infrastructure involved with the mega-textured worlds. Expect to build new gaming characteristics and multiplayer modes, but not much more than that for now. Keeping in mind there is over a 1TB of source material to build RAGE, they can’t possibly put that all up for download.

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RAGE is coming October 4th!

Finally, we asked about his opinions and thoughts on the upcoming release of Skyrim and Carmack stated that it was interesting to see how easily they could integrate some of the adventure game features in future titles without detracting from other aspects of gameplay. And because id Software is essentially on the same team as Bethesda now, the “masters of the craft” as he calls them, it would seem likely we’ll see a merger of these types of ideas in upcoming titles.

There are a lot more details in our full video interview on the previous page so make sure you give it a listen/view – at only 32 minutes long you would be hard pressed to get more information in such a short time span.

I would again like to thank John Carmack and Angela Ramsey for blocking off some time with us during the busy Quakecon schedule! We love the work they are doing and can’t wait to see what the id Software and Bethesda teams have for us in the future!

You can follow Ryan Shrout on twitter @ryanshrout and John Carmack on twitter @ID_AA_Carmack.

For more from John Carmack at Quakecon 2011, be sure to check out his keynote and follow up Q&A videos.

August 12, 2011 | 12:07 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

I like the summary but, Will there be a written transcript of the interview?

I can read faster than watch and I can read the articles during sanity breaks at work.

Its rare that I make time for an internet video, but I will try to for this one.

August 12, 2011 | 02:59 PM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

We might try to do that but we hadn't planned on it. The whole idea of video (and then the written summary) was to NOT do a complete and direct transcription.

August 12, 2011 | 03:58 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

I think the subject matter is technical enough that you can assume the interested readers are not illiterate :) And yeah, i don't have time to watch a talking head for 32 minutes when i could read the transcript in 10.

August 13, 2011 | 04:17 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

And yet you have time to come on here and post 2x about it, when instead you could have watched the interview with the great illustrative video samples of games and graphic techniques.

August 12, 2011 | 03:44 PM - Posted by Wilhelm (not verified)

On a (crappy) mobile here, please make a transcript!

Also, making a transcript of anything Carmack says just makes sense :)

August 12, 2011 | 03:52 PM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

We get enough requests and we'll probably do it. :)

August 12, 2011 | 06:56 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

+1 for a transcript.

August 12, 2011 | 07:39 PM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

We are currently working on it!

August 13, 2011 | 12:01 AM - Posted by brickviking (not verified)

Another +1 for a transcript. Pleeeease?

Thanks, Dr Smokey.

August 13, 2011 | 12:09 AM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

We'll have sometime tomorrow early afternoon, promise.

August 12, 2011 | 04:30 PM - Posted by Darren (not verified)

It's rare that I leap to Sony's defence, but I feel I should so here. The reason the PS3 doesn't use full 64 bit addresses is simply because it doesn't need to. John seems to find the decision strange that they don't have a >4GiB address space, but given that there's only 512MiB of memory (plus some extra devices etc), having 8byte pointers would just be a waste of space that could be better used for other stuff.

The first few versions of the PS3 SDK were truly 64bit, but enough developers complained about the waste of space using long pointers that didn't need to be long that Sony saw sense and fixed it. The 360 similarly has a 64bit processor, but only bothers with a 32bit address space, simply because it's enough.

August 12, 2011 | 04:50 PM - Posted by DJ Fitz (not verified)

Another vote for the transcript. Besides being faster to read than view, a transcript would allow so much more. A transcript leads to indexing, which leads to searching, which leads to traffic from search engines, and ultimately more traffic on your site as a whole. This provides a much higher value for everyone far beyond the enjoyment and edification of just watching a John Carmack interview.

But anyways, thanks again for the interview. Always great to hear what John has been up to and the state of game development.

August 12, 2011 | 05:11 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Transcript please!

August 12, 2011 | 05:42 PM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

We do have an editor working on it now. We'll add it as third page on this review today or tomorrow.

Thanks for reading!

August 12, 2011 | 10:28 PM - Posted by Tim Verry

Did someone say my name?!

August 13, 2011 | 12:37 AM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

Indeed, Tim is that lucky man.

August 13, 2011 | 09:19 AM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

Ask and you shall receive (sometimes), the interview transcript:

August 13, 2011 | 10:28 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Thanks for the transcript, Tim!

August 13, 2011 | 07:07 PM - Posted by Tim Verry

You're welcome!

August 12, 2011 | 05:13 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

(Great summary though, thanks for that!)

August 12, 2011 | 07:16 PM - Posted by Paul Fjeld (not verified)

I for one am blown away by the clarity of the questions and Carmack's clear replies. You don't get a proper appreciation for how great an extemporaneous speaker Carmack is in a transcript, although the data density is certainly high enough to make a transcript useful. But I think it is worth the time to just listen to two smart people going at a complex subject.

Well done!

August 12, 2011 | 07:30 PM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

Thanks Paul!

August 12, 2011 | 10:21 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

1 TB is not that much anymore.

My PC is busy so I will cut this short ;) :)

August 13, 2011 | 12:38 AM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

It sure would be a lot to DOWNLOAD though, right?

August 13, 2011 | 07:08 PM - Posted by Tim Verry

Yeah, their bandwidth costs would be astronomical! I suppose they could go the bittorent route and just let their users host it for them, but I doubt they do that :( lol

August 13, 2011 | 04:04 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

I love how this interview guy pretends like he knows what Carmack is saying. Dude, I'm about to get a PhD in Neuroscience and I've been watching Carmack talk for 10 years, and I barely can follow what he says even with my failed CS degree. I would never be like "" when talking with the pioneers of my field. And then read some pre-made questions to ask him. OMG dude! Have you even played DOOM? Romero would make you his bitch.

August 13, 2011 | 04:49 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

PhD in Neuroscience? That's cool and all but you know, he isn't talking about neuroscience. If you managed to fail CS degree, it's not surprising that you can't follow Carmack. I could follow most of the stuff he was talking about and who knows what kind of background the interviewer has. He at least had good questions on the subject.

August 13, 2011 | 08:55 AM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

Exactly. There was very little stuff I didn't understand. After working in the graphics field for 11 years now, I have a pretty good grasp. Could I compete with Carmack in SAYING all of that? Nope. Could I understand most of it? Yup.

August 13, 2011 | 05:10 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Great interview - though I dont think Ryan knows what he's talking about most of the time- check out the nervous nods in slightly the wrong places to simulate understanding.

Remember though, John is supposed to be doing the talking, not Ryan, and it succeeds in that aim.

Oh - previous poster, said same thing. Dont be hard on ryan: its all geeky techy stuff; not understanding is more a function of John's extreme geekiness than Ryans lack of intelligence. Low level programming knowledge does not equate to god-like wisdom. It's the guys job & passion, after all.

From what I've seen of Rage so far, it looks just like another boring shooter. Totally unexciting. Pioneer or no pioneer back in the day, I'm not that interested in their games.

August 13, 2011 | 09:27 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

I thought the interviewer saying "OK" "OK" "Right" "Right" constantly was really annoying.

August 13, 2011 | 09:48 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

OK Right

August 13, 2011 | 10:16 AM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

Mm hmm...

August 13, 2011 | 09:52 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Thanks heaps for the transcript! I really appreciate your effort.

August 13, 2011 | 07:10 PM - Posted by Tim Verry

You're welcome, I hope it helped!

August 13, 2011 | 11:56 AM - Posted by pdjblum

Ryan, not intending to mean or insulting, but so I might not feel any more of an idiot that I already am, did you really instantaneously get what he was saying? If you did, you are incredibly knowledgeable in this area of expertise. Wish I got half of it. I will listen again, but doubt that will improve my comprehension. Certainly doesn't take much to get John talking, and I guess in consideration of time constraints, you were regularly saying "OK" and "right" to move him along and get to the next question. Personally, though I really liked the range of questions, I would have been fine listening to him answer one question in the time allowed. Anyway, good job.

August 13, 2011 | 07:53 PM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

You are correct - part of the reason I was saying those things was attempting to find a break point to interject and get some more questions in. Obviously I failed.

Also, as for how much of it I understood, I think I got about 75% as we went - I don't think I am near the level of many other technical writers out there but having dealt with this for 11 years I picked up quite a bit.

August 13, 2011 | 08:49 PM - Posted by Tim Verry

lol, now you know how I feel trying to get a word in edgewise with Katy! :P

August 13, 2011 | 09:32 PM - Posted by pdjblum

I assure you, understanding 75% is quite impressive. As far as knowing as much as other technical writers, you bring a lot more to the table that is more important to what you do.

August 13, 2011 | 11:58 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

I really, REALLY want Carmack's q2 shirt.

August 13, 2011 | 03:14 PM - Posted by WilhelmR (not verified)

Transcript = awesomeness.

Thanks guys :)

August 13, 2011 | 04:41 PM - Posted by Rahul (not verified)

Good interview and good diverse (and interesting) questions!
Listening to Carmack is always interesting. Thanks for doing this!

August 13, 2011 | 04:49 PM - Posted by Marc Roussel (not verified)


August 13, 2011 | 05:07 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

This interview is the exact opposite of an interview with say Robert Dinero. With him you could bearly get him to say anything other than yes and no to your questions so the time was filled with the interviewer trying to fill the space by talking. Carmack is an interviewers dream. You ask one question and sit back for 20 minutes a let him go. That being said, he is obviously brilliant. Notice for instance he rarely says "um".... or "right"... or any other things that allow you time to think stuff out, it just flowes out perfectly.

August 13, 2011 | 07:13 PM - Posted by Tim Verry

Yeah, he is a talker, that's for sure! He always has a lot of interesting things to say.

August 17, 2011 | 11:39 AM - Posted by Brad Hollister (not verified)

Not to belittle Mr. Carmack in anyway, but most of his interview answers were really at a high-level / project manager style. This is nothing a smooth talking software salesman couldn't pull off. And for the lack of "um..." or "right...", all that suggests is that he has confidence and has talked on these topics many times before (probably everyday at id). In fact, give a listen to some very brilliant people like Dr. Robert Shiller (Yale) or Dr. Summers (former president of Harvard) and you'll find many "um..." and pauses, which appear to be signs of measured speaking and reflection. Mr. Carmack definitely has been a very successful software engineer which is in part due to proper timing (right code for the right market time).

More importantly, we should all be discussing the content of what he said, not the style or the judgement of the man. I found the hybrid ray-tracer (ray casting for only specular reflections in the context of a rasterized pipeline) quite interesting but superficial in presentation. However, the unnecessary ratio analysis of developer time / rasterized based shaders versus developer time / x86 cores (pertaining to the offline raytracing done for textures) not to be completely necessary - at least in the way he presented it (again nothing more than a stock analyst could pull off).

August 14, 2011 | 06:11 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Have anyone seen the CentiLeo GPU ray tracer? They show virtual memory access working very well on consumer GPU, it was presented on Siggraph very impressively. Here are some first news about them

August 14, 2011 | 06:23 PM - Posted by Cyco-Dude (not verified)

well, it's about as i figured: as these games get more and more complex, it gets harder and harder for the modding community. with quake 3, even i could make a map. now, you'll need a very talented team to do that. it's a real shame, and a good reason why i'll bet this game disappears 1.5 years after release.

i'm still waiting for a true successor to quake 3...i wonder if those days are over?

August 14, 2011 | 06:43 PM - Posted by FlowSim_geek (not verified)

I am pretty sure the transcript should read "[...] people start looking at Navier-Stokes equations [...]" instead of "[...] people start to look for your Stokes equations [...]" in Carmacks first answer. Those equations are actually used to simulate (turbulent) fluid flow, see:

August 14, 2011 | 09:41 PM - Posted by Tim Verry

yeah, you're right. I listened to that at least twice and both times I heard your, but listening to it this time I heard Navier. I'll see about updating it, thanks for the heads up :)

August 14, 2011 | 08:21 PM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

'doing a render “man-like thing” going down to micro-polygon levels'

should actually be

'doing a RenderMan-like thing going down to micro-polygon levels'

August 14, 2011 | 09:43 PM - Posted by Tim Verry

Ah, so it's a proper noun... I hadn't heard of that before so took his words to mean rendering a human like form/character hehe. I'll see about updating it.

August 15, 2011 | 11:06 AM - Posted by pdjblum

Listened for a second time and was able to understand a lot more than I did the first time. With this listening, was able to recognize when John was going off on a tangent. Ryan did his best to reel him in. Great job and great interview. Thanks.

August 16, 2011 | 01:14 PM - Posted by Ryan Shrout

Thanks, appreciate the comment!

August 15, 2011 | 12:54 PM - Posted by BJ Blazkowicz (not verified)

“well we’ve got a Bézier spline, or a nerve, or something like that,”
should probably be
“well we’ve got a Bézier spline, or a NURB, or something like that,”

NURB is short for Non-Uniform Rational B-spline. Makes a bit more sense in context.

August 16, 2011 | 04:16 AM - Posted by Tim Verry

hehe, nice catch. John needs to subtitle himself when he starts talking super technical :)

PS Awesome username

August 19, 2011 | 03:56 AM - Posted by Anonymous (not verified)

Great guest and great Interview Ryan. Thank You, and thanks for 166 great hardware podcasts you've given us.

You guys could talk for 350 minutes and I'd not stop listening! Enjoyed watching two smart people didcussing intelligently about interesting topics, but you said Ok, OK too many times. Although certainly not your intention, it came accross as if the guest was boring and you needed to terminate each thread. Also, now that you've got this guy, why sit him in front of the elevators and in such a noisy environment with crew members pushing carts around in the background? Heck, with a guest like that, I would've rented a presidential suite room, sat on the couch and had a relaxed long conversation.

March 26, 2012 | 04:57 PM - Posted by Angel G (not verified)

I`ve played DOOM-I with great excitement, because it was the first game with such technology.
But have to say that their games need to become "inspired content", take for example SW KOTOR-II; Witcher-2; etc.
I mean that the game should make you feel, take decisions and witness the consequence, not just point & shoot everything, because it`s boring to kill thousands of opponents (at least for me).
It`s boring also to search labyrinths without any clue where to go....

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